楼主: iyiqian
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[学科前沿] [讨论]社会保障的性质 [推广有奖]

21
张三李四 发表于 2005-5-8 22:18:00 |只看作者 |坛友微信交流群
<DIV class=quote><B>以下是引用<I>iyiqian</I>在2005-5-8 21:36:14的发言:</B>

<P>五一出去小游了几日,回来一看,各位大侠讨论得很是热烈啊:)</P>
<P>其实对于政府责任的问题,观点的差异集中于社会保险领域;对于社会保险来说,无论是否由政府直接提供,政府财政都要承担最后责任人的角色。</P>
<P>现收现付制下,社会保险制度必然由政府提供;基金积累制下,社会保险的资金管理和运营才可能实现市场操作。但是,即使是市场管理的国家,也就是我们所说的社会保险(主要是养老保险)私营化的国家,其政府都承担着政策制定及资金运营监管的责任(比如政府要强制性的规定缴费金额;资金的投资领域政府有明确的规定和限制),政府财政更担当着资金支付的最后责任人的角色。目前还没有哪个国家,哪个政府敢把保险业完全放给市场去运行。</P>
<P>所以,在社会保险领域,资金的运营和管理,采用市场的方式是有效率的;但是,制度的供给应该也必须是政府的责任。毕竟社会保险关系到国计民生,在这里,市场的效率,不能取代政府公权所起到的重要作用。</P>
<P>从我对前几天我们社会调查的思考来看,目前我们的情况是社会保险的制度存在缺失,下岗职工(我们的调查范围是灵活就业人员)选择以商业保险来代替社会保险。也就是说,在有社会保险制度供给的情况下,大家都愿意选择政府举办的社会保险,但是在社会保险制度供给缺失的情况下,大家不得不选择商业保险以防范生活风险。</P>
<P>另外,还发现,目前下岗职工社会保险接续工作的不到位(或者有些干脆可以称之为缺失),使政府的公信力大打折扣。有些人员在调查中,明确提出了对政府的社会保险的不信任,表现出了对商业保险的高信任。让我们这些学习社会保障的学生们觉得可悲、可叹,也发人深省!任重而道远啊!</P>
</DIV>
<P>
<P>我觉得很有必要澄清一个基本的概念。</P>
<P>所谓的“公共提供”或者说“政府提供”可以有很多种组织形式,其中的一种叫做“公共提供,私人生产”,比方说象美国国防系统内的大多数武器装备来自私人企业的生产,但这并不意味着美国的“国防”是由私人提供的或者说提供了一部分,也绝不是说美国的“国防”其公共品性质会因此而改变,重要的是资金的来源。政府以税收的方式提供的公共品,不一定要亲自组织生产或者实施,政府采购同样是一种方式。</P>
<P>再比方说“教育券”,这实际上是政府以税收的方式强制提供了一部分教育,但却是完全有市场来组织运作的。而教育的准公共品性质并不会因为这种市场运作而有丝毫的改变。</P>
<P>“社保”也是一样,只要其资金来源是强制实施的类似税收的方式在提供,这就算是“政府提供”,至于如何运作,不至于影响到其公共品或者私人品的性质。运作影响的是该种物品提供的组织效率。</P>
<P>顺便说一句,社保资金“市场的运作更有效率”应该指的是组织效率,而主流论证公共品市场提供无效率指的是帕雷托效率。前者说明应该“如何生产”,后者说明“如何提供”</P>
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22
vagabond 发表于 2005-5-12 00:16:00 |只看作者 |坛友微信交流群
<P>谢谢你教我们一些知识,不过,你澄清的概念说明什么呢?</P><P>
社会保障应该是兼有社会救助性质和风险分担性质的准公共品
</P><P>是这个吗?表述上固然还有推敲的余地,不过至少楼主和我都没有反对呀。</P><P>
容易证明,私人提供会导致社会保障的提供不足。
</P><P>才是当初引发交流的根源,不过,看不到你的证明(而且恐怕也没有任何人已经给出了令人信服的证明)。</P>
4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. [Philippians]

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23
张三李四 发表于 2005-5-12 23:05:00 |只看作者 |坛友微信交流群
<P>我难道不是从头至角都在说这回事情吗?</P><P>这个证明可以见诸于任何一本公共经济学教材。对于公共品或者准公共品来说,(完全或者不完全的)非排他性意味着私人成本和社会成本的分离。如果完全让市场来提供,市场主体出于最大化利润的需要按照边际成本定价,由于私人的边际成本高于社会成本,将导致“提供不足”。</P><P>当然这是一个局部均衡的分析,严格的证明很复杂。同时,没有经济学家在这类产品应该政府“提供”上发生争执。路灯应该政府的税收出钱建才有效率,但政府办个路灯厂可能就没效率(我一再强调这两个效率不同);社保资金必须政府强制征收(据说才能保证帕雷托效率),但政府亲自来运作这笔资金可能就缺乏(组织)效率。我想vagabong兄是混淆了完全不同的两回事。</P>
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24
vagabond 发表于 2005-5-13 20:07:00 |只看作者 |坛友微信交流群
<P>我有自知之明:谈到路灯,我未必论辩得过你,你要走专业化道路,而我则是“实用主义者”。</P><P>但是,谈到社会保障的性质,笼统套用公共品或准公共品怕是有很大问题的。</P><P>“社保资金必须政府强制征收(据说才能保证帕雷托效率)”,恕我孤陋寡闻,有没有令人信服的文献佐证?帕雷托效率是什么时候提出的?Speenhamland Law却是1795年通过的。无论从历史还是从现实考察,社会保障是社会公平理念的产物,不同的时空有不同的公平理念,因此,不同时空有不同的社会保障制度。恐怕要到实际运作(包括征收)时才能谈到效率问题吧?因此,不是我,而是你混淆了两者。公平与效率无法兼顾是经济学的常识,或许我们可以安全地说公平是哲学、社会学、政治学范畴的理念,而效率才是经济学研究的对象。</P>
4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. [Philippians]

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25
vagabond 发表于 2005-5-17 15:57:00 |只看作者 |坛友微信交流群
<P>Tuesday, May 17, 2005 </P><P>Bush's Impossible Social Security Plan
by Robert Murphy </P><P>[Posted on Thursday, May 12, 2005]
Now that the Bush Administration has wrapped up its sixty-stop, sixty-day campaign to bolster support for its Social Security proposal, the machinery is cranking in that great deliberative body, the U.S. Congress. The latest development is Bush's suggestion to index benefits for wealthy retirees to prices (rather than wages), which is effectively a cut in promised benefits.</P><P>The proposal has disappointed some members of Congress , who apparently believed Bush when he said his plan would involve no tax hikes and no benefit cuts. But as I hope to show in this essay, Bush's original promises were simply nonsensical. It would be overly dramatic to say that they violated economic laws; indeed, they violated basic truisms of accounting and finance.</P><P>BUSH'S ORIGINAL PLAN</P><P>Stripped to its core, Bush's plan has always been to divert (a portion of) current revenues raised from the Social Security tax, and channel them into investment in private accounts that would roll over and earn a higher rate of return than that promised by the current benefit scheme. Proponents of the plan (and I have had discussions with them) argue (a) that it is better for money to be invested in the private sector, rather than being spent by the government. They also claim that (b) the increase in investment will foster capital accumulation and lower interest rates.</P><P>Looked at in isolation, each of these two propositions is certainly correct. However, this should not comfort Bush's supporters, because he has simultaneously promised that he will not raise anyone's taxes and that he will not reduce government spending to pay for the "reform." Consequently, whatever benefits there are to the diversion of tax revenues into the private sector are exactly offset by increased government borrowing. Supporters of the Bush plan indirectly acknowledge the necessity of increased borrowing when they speak of "transition costs," but they don't realize that these costs will completely wipe out the alleged benefits of the plan. And let me reiterate, this has nothing to do with idiosyncratic assumptions that I am making in a dubious economic model; the Bush plan is nothing but a shell game.</P><P>A NUMERICAL EXAMPLE</P><P>At the risk of boring the reader, let's go over a hypothetical example (with nice round numbers) to illustrate my point. Suppose that initially the government of a large country takes in $600 billion in regular tax revenues, and another $200 billion in Social Security contributions (from both employers and employees). At the same time, this government spends $100 billion in Social Security benefits, while it spends $750 billion on everything else (such as education, defense, welfare, etc.). Thus the Social Security system has an annual surplus of $100 billion ($200 billion minus $100 billion), while the Treasury has a deficit of $150 billion ($600 billion in regular tax revenues and $750 billion in non-Social Security expenditures).</P><P>In order to finance the deficit, every year the government takes the extra $100 billion raised by the Social Security system and spends it, and places a Treasury Department IOU in the "trust fund." Even so, the government is still short $50 billion every year, and so it borrows this money from the private sector in order to pay its bills.</P><P>Now a reformer comes along and signs legislation that allows all of the money raised by the Social Security tax (i.e., the contributions of employers and employees) to be diverted away from present government spending, and into private accounts. Proponents rightly point out that this has raised the supply of savings by $200 billion, and will thus tend to reduce interest rates and foster private investment.</P><P>However, if the government continues to pay the same level of benefits to current retirees, and if it refuses to cut spending on other government programs, then it must now borrow not $50 billion but rather $250 billion from the private sector, in order to finance its activities. (This is because total current expenditures are still $850 billion, while the government now only has the general tax revenue of $600 billion.) There is simply no way around this; if the government spent all of the Social Security revenues under the status quo, then it must borrow that much extra whenever any portion of these revenues are diverted away from current spending. Thus the $200 billion in extra savings channeled into the private sector is exactly offset by an increased (official) deficit of $200 billion.</P><P>Interest rates on net will not fall, because the rightward shift of the supply curve of loanable funds is matched perfectly by a rightward shift in the demand curve for loanable funds. Really the government has done nothing but placed the $200 billion into the loan market with its left hand, in order to borrow it right back with its right hand. The only difference between the status quo and the "reformed" situation is that Treasury IOUs now pile up in the hands of private creditors rather than in the Social Security "trust fund."</P><P>It is true that, from an individual worker's point of view, he will earn a higher rate of return if he invests his money in the stock market rather than surrendering it to the current Social Security scheme. (Indeed, that's a great argument for abolishing the system.) But it is also true that an individual worker will be richer when he retires, the lower the national debt is and hence the lower taxes need to be in order to finance it. Because the enhanced asset value of his pension is exactly counterbalanced by increased (official) government indebtedness, the individual has not been helped at all by the reform. </P><P>REDUCTIO AD ABSURDUM</P><P>In case my hypothetical example seems too abstract, change the context: Suppose Bush had proposed taking the current military budget and, rather than spending it on defense contractors, troop wages, etc., we diverted these hundreds of billions of dollars into the stock market. After all, it's silly to spend $300 billion today when, after compound interest, it will be worth $500 billion in a few decades. Oh, don't worry about our military preparedness: Bush promises not to cut one penny from the Pentagon's budget; he will pay for the "transition" out of general revenues. And oh, don't worry about your taxes going up either; Bush promises not to do that.</P><P>Perhaps even here I've lost the reader. Fair enough, change it to your own household: Why do you ever use any portion of your present income to pay your expenses? You should "obviously" take your entire paycheck and put it in the stock market, where it will earn a higher rate of return than if you spend it. And don't worry about what this decision will do to your present lifestyle—just use your credit card in the meantime, until the benefits of your new saving catch up with you.</P><P>CONCLUSION</P><P>It was inevitable that Bush would concede benefit cuts (however evasively) in his Social Security plan, for his original proposal was patently impossible. The Social Security system is a giant Ponzi scheme, and no tinkering is going to change that. Workers should be allowed to opt out of the bankrupt scheme, period. If the public won't tolerate the impact on elderly widows and others with inadequate savings, it would be much more sensible to handle this through unambiguous welfare programs. It is immoral and absurd to shackle all citizens because of the feared imprudence or disastrous luck of a tiny percentage.</P><P>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</P><P>  
Robert Murphy is an adjunct scholar of the Mises Institute. He teaches economics at Hillsdale College. See the Murphy Archive. Buy his book on the stateless society. Discuss this article on the blog.</P><P>
Strictly speaking, one could argue that the individual benefits because the government can borrow at a lower rate of interest than individuals can. However, I have yet to see a proponent make such a subtle move, and in any event the only reason the government can borrow on such good terms is that it has the power to tax. Thus even this argument would not prove that everyone benefits from the reform.</P><P>
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4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. [Philippians]

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26
iyiqian-2 发表于 2005-5-19 15:41:00 |只看作者 |坛友微信交流群
<P>各位老大在争论时,时候应该看看经济学家们如何对社会保险进行定义和描述</P>
<P>这是warsky师兄,对萨缪尔森《经济学》17版的笔记</P>
<P><img src="http://pic.pinggu.com/attachments/uploadfile_20082009/2005-5/2005519153241690.jpg" border="0" onload="if(this.width>document.body.clientWidth*0.5) {this.resized=true;this.width=document.body.clientWidth*0.5;this.style.cursor='pointer';} else {this.onclick=null}" alt="" />
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<P><img src="http://pic.pinggu.com/attachments/uploadfile_20082009/2005-5/200551915353367.jpg" border="0" onload="if(this.width>document.body.clientWidth*0.5) {this.resized=true;this.width=document.body.clientWidth*0.5;this.style.cursor='pointer';} else {this.onclick=null}" alt="" />
<img src="http://pic.pinggu.com/attachments/uploadfile_20082009/2005-5/2005519153531380.jpg" border="0" onload="if(this.width>document.body.clientWidth*0.5) {this.resized=true;this.width=document.body.clientWidth*0.5;this.style.cursor='pointer';} else {this.onclick=null}" alt="" />
</P>

[此贴子已经被作者于2005-5-21 22:38:44编辑过]

为什么我这么笨?那是因为我数学没有学好!

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27
warsky 发表于 2005-5-19 23:57:00 |只看作者 |坛友微信交流群
<P>呵呵,我笔记怎么流传到这里来了。</P><P>对于政府和个人的关系,我的思想就是“个人支付税收,政府提供保护;个人总是想尽办法尽量减少支付,政府也是能不负责就不负责;政府对公民承担没有收益的责任(也就是提供免费的午餐)的时候,主要是为了维护统治环境的安定,以最小的损失换回稳定的其他收益;政府对一部分人提供的免费午餐来自于对另一部分人掠夺”</P><P>楼主最喜欢把什么东西都归到政府的责任,要找出个什么应然性。我最不想谈的就是应然性,一切对自己公平来自于自己的实力,依赖,本身就是通向奴役的道路</P>
治学之道,日进一尺,长久坚持,也能通达!——warsky

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28
vagabond 发表于 2005-5-20 22:33:00 |只看作者 |坛友微信交流群
实际上第三条的论述是不完整的,当三农问题日益突出的时候,政府就会加大对农村的投入,这不是经济上的考量,而是政治立场使然。即便市场不失灵或私人保险能够提供足够的保险项目,政府依然会介入社会保险,抢夺话语权(特别是在民主社会中,因为懒汉也有同样的投票权,是政客的争取对象)。请记住公平与效率是经济学的一对矛盾,不过,对公平的研究并不为经济学所专有(而社会保险的立意在于公平,从某种角度上说,就是花钱买太平,因此矿工照样死亡,进步只在于死亡后实际上获益不多的政府会给予补偿)。
4:12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. [Philippians]

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29
chenq26 发表于 2005-6-1 08:14:00 |只看作者 |坛友微信交流群
<P>非纯公共产品!</P>

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30
anything001 发表于 2011-4-1 19:47:58 |只看作者 |坛友微信交流群
现代社会保障应是准公共物品吧,并不完全由**提供,有了市场的参与就有竞争性和排他性了

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