楼主: nie
58910 135

[其他] [转型21]乡村建设vs.新农村运动? [推广有奖]

21
wangdebin116 发表于 2006-3-22 21:16:00

大家可以到下面的地方去看有关新农村的观点:

http://www.chinagateway.com.cn/chinese/zhuanti/jscs/41898.htm

22
ershibahuasheng 发表于 2006-3-22 23:02:00
以下是引用nie在2006-3-21 15:16:00的发言:
12楼认为应该加强对农民权利的保护,能否具体地指出农民目前最需要保护和发展哪些权利?如何保护?谢谢。

自由的权利.这里"自由"容易让人不易理解,我举个例子解释一下:在我看来,法律有两种,一种是静态的,一种是动态的。所谓静态的法律就是法律规定一个范围,人们只能在这个范围内活动;而动态的法律则是不没有划定一个范围,但他禁止某些行为,也就是说凡是没有被法律禁止的行为或活动人们都可以去做。我所说的自由就等动这里动态的法律的含义。如果要落到实处说,就是农民要有组织团体的自由权利,他们可以自由的加入和退出某个团体,无论这个团体是经济的性质还是政治的性质。我私下的意见是这种团体不太可能是纯粹的经济团体,但很有可能以经济团体的性质出现,随着收入水平的提高和其他因素影响,政治性质将日渐明显。

对于如何保护,自己并没有答案,但是有一点是可以肯定的:农民问题的解决即自由权利的建立、巩固最终只能由能自己去解决,但以现在农民的现况是无论如何也不可能担当起自救的角色的;所以现在需要一个过渡,需要外界力量的介入!

因为没有做过实地调查,只能泛泛而说。如果没记错的话,nie版主应该是有过这方面调查经验的,请问您对此有何高见?同时希望版主能否传点当时的调查资料给我,不胜感激!

/www.lxyq.org

23
ershibahuasheng 发表于 2006-3-22 23:09:00

请教nie版主你对制度的定义是如何理解的?谢谢!

/www.lxyq.org

24
sungmoo 发表于 2006-3-23 08:31:00

当年施拉普纳曾对中国队员说过:“(球)不知往哪路踢的时候,就往球门里踢。”

如果不知如何建新农村,就去想办法提高农民收入(生活水平)。显然,收入几乎与其他一切因素互为因果,如果想做的太错综了,就以增收为导向。

如何“增收”?肯定没有统一的做法,在弄清楚如何做之前,首先要找到现实约束(“现实约束”,即人力所不能改变的限制条件)——这就是所谓的“立足现实”。

一个约束是,农民增收应该是个帕累托改善(至少在大数上是个帕累托改善)。我们固然提不出“社会福利函数”这种东西,但如果城市不能同时从中获益,恐怕阻力还是很大(至少农产品生产的增加并没有城市购买力的增加相支持)。

另一个约束是,也是非常重要的,资源约束。所谓“资源粗放型增长”与“资源集约型增长”都不悖于“理性”(而正是理性行为的结果),其区别不过是“短期规划”与“长期规划”(这里的规划是“programming”)的区别。资源是稀缺的(甚至是有限的),长期与短期的规划一定对应不同的资源使用路径。如果我们真地愿意把规划的时间拉长,愿意把子孙后代的福利也考虑到规划中,粗放型自然转向了集约型。

25
laudon 发表于 2006-3-23 09:26:00

我也被立志于农村建设的学子们感动了,在这片古老的大地上,一直不乏心怀改变农村面貌的热望,投入精力和智慧,破解“三农”问题的探索者。

我有两个问题求教于大家,望各位就任一问题谈谈自己观点

先看一点背景资料:

南街村:对外称是既要建设“共产主义小社区”,也要搞市场经济。“外圆内方”,是“班长”王宏斌最喜欢说的一个词,外圆,是指要积极地与市场经济接轨,适应社会大气候;内方,则是按照共产主义组织和分配原则,以共产主义的工作和生活规范来教育村民,治理南街。南街村公布企业固定资产已达12亿元。村里提供的数据显示:一年用于福利保障的资金共2500万元。

华西村:有报道称是转型国家的转型村庄,新生一代的历史方向。新书记吴协恩三年前从父亲呈仁宝手中接班,到2005年销售收入达到307亿,这段父子传承又再一次披上了一层英雄主义的色彩。周边16个村从2001年开始陆续并入华西村,其土地也由华西党委统一规划,称为先富带动后富。《吴仁宝评传》作者、华西村“名誉村民”冯治教授说: “老书记可说是一位‘农民政治家’,而新书记更像一名‘农民企业家’。”

问题是:

一、 这两个村经济得以发展的根本原因是什么?有否有推广价值?

这是缘于看了最早包产到户的小岗村今年元月25日考察南街等村后,召开村民会,讨论“小岗村”怎么办的这一消息报道后的思考。

二、 “新农村”首要解决的当然是村民说了算。但你认为农村工作最难做的工作的是什么?大学生下去了后将面临的最大困难是什么?

这是缘于看了楼上有志于农村工作网友发言后的启发,即想到问题是:你准备好了没有?

26
nie 发表于 2006-3-23 10:22:00

回复

以下是引用胖头陀在2006-3-21 16:31:00的发言:
我觉得应该从农村的金融改革入手,给农民更好的金融支持,先使农业产业化得到发展,增强经济实力后,再进行精神文明建设

奖励金钱50。

请说说为什么应该改革农村金融?应该如何改革?有什么可以借鉴的经验?

天下滔滔,我看到象牙塔一座一座倒掉, 不禁为那些被囚禁的普通灵魂感到庆幸, 然而,当我看到, 还有少数几座依然不倒, 不禁对它们肃然起敬, 不知坚守其中的, 是怎样一些灵魂?

27
ershibahuasheng 发表于 2006-3-23 12:35:00
以下是引用wangdebin116在2006-3-22 20:23:00的发言:

很感谢你的热心,我也一直在找那份报纸,你方便的话请发到我的油箱

wangdebin116@163.com

谢谢了啊

梁漱溟先生的自传<<我生有涯愿无尽,心期填海力移山>>我也在寻找,我找到读完再与你分享

我也不是只想做加工,我认为这只是伍的一个突破口,我最终想有一个农场,当然能把养殖等链起来就更好。我有一个同学也是想回农村,他主要是搞种子,有可能我与他会联手,不管怎么说,文学外能得到更多得人的支持!

那期报纸的内容已经传给你了,如果没收到通知我一下,我重新传。传的是图片的格式,质量不是很好。

/www.lxyq.org

28
wangdebin116 发表于 2006-3-23 21:23:00
以下是引用laudon在2006-3-23 9:26:00的发言:

我也被立志于农村建设的学子们感动了,在这片古老的大地上,一直不乏心怀改变农村面貌的热望,投入精力和智慧,破解“三农”问题的探索者。

我有两个问题求教于大家,望各位就任一问题谈谈自己观点

先看一点背景资料:

南街村:对外称是既要建设“共产主义小社区”,也要搞市场经济是“班长”王宏斌最喜欢说的一个词,外圆,是指要积极地与市场经济接轨,适应社会大气候;内方,则是按照共产主义组织和分配原则,以共产主义的工作和生活规范来教育村民,治理南街。南街村公布企业固定资产已达12亿元。村里提供的数据显示:一年用于福利保障的资金共2500万元。

华西村:有报道称是转型国家的转型村庄,新生一代的历史方向。新书记吴协恩三年前从父亲呈仁宝手中接班,到2005年销售收入达到307亿,这段父子传承又再一次披上了一层英雄主义的色彩。周边16个村从2001年开始陆续并入华西村,其土地也由华西党委统一规划,称为先富带动后富。《吴仁宝评传》作者、华西村“名誉村民”冯治教授说: “老书记可说是一位‘农民政治家’,而新书记更像一名‘农民企业家’。”

问题是:

一、 这两个村经济得以发展的根本原因是什么?有否有推广价值?

这是缘于看了最早包产到户的小岗村今年元月25日考察南街等村后,召开村民会,讨论“小岗村”怎么办的这一消息报道后的思考。

二、 “新农村”首要解决的当然是村民说了算。但你认为农村工作最难做的工作的是什么?大学生下去了后将面临的最大困难是什么?

这是缘于看了楼上有志于农村工作网友发言后的启发,即想到问题是:你准备好了没有?

我觉得这两个村发展的根本原因是选择了适合社会的,能促进生产力发展的模式。南街村“外圆内方”,一方面是紧跟潮流,建立市场经济体系,另一方面又坚持社会主义公有制的基础地位,有特色的走富民兴村的道路。它是把怎么让农民、农村得到发展放在首位,结合自己的特点搞活农村经济的

华西村是在转型中发展起来的,它应该是很好的把握了发展的机遇,靠农村企业家或说是有企业家精神的人在坚持先让一部分人富起来带动后富的方式,统一合理规划而发展的。

我觉得这两个村的发展有推广的意义,在解决三农问题或是建设新农村中,有值得借鉴的地方,重要是不论怎么搞,都要符合客观规律,要从当地的实际出发,充分合理利用当地资源,有必要的话可以在最经济的情况下使资源合理流动,用最优的资源搭配,加上完善的制度,时时把农民的利益放在首位,促使农业的发展,最终城乡一体化。

但是,我觉得这两个村的经验没有必要看做是一副灵丹妙药,他不是我们国家发展的统一模式,我们国家的地区差异很大,不可能在每个地方都适合,毕竟这两个村的发展是两个特例,不能代表全部。

新农村建设中,农村的首要问题是切实给农民好处,也就是要切实把农民的利益放在第一位。新农村不是去把农村的房子等基础设备修一修,换成新的,也不是给农民带去一些他们不懂去又不使用的东西,而是要在城市化与市场之间另找一条路,让农民不仅仅增收(农民还是不满),更重要的是农民的福利得到满足。说简单点,就是要农民能体面的生活。

大学生下去面对的最大的困难是怎么与农民建立起互信,因为农村基层矛盾还是很尖锐,大学生下去与当地基层领导的关系很棘手,我们要保持住自己的原则还是与之同化,值得考虑。如果处理不好,加上我们大学生毕竟刚出校门,农民对我们是没有信心的。

这就要求大学生在下去前有很好的素质,能应对复杂的局面,下去能诚心抱着为农民做点事来的心态与之交往,相信我们是可以得到农民的新的。

以上纯是个人的愚见,见笑了

29
ershibahuasheng 发表于 2006-3-23 22:46:00
以下是引用wangdebin116在2006-3-23 21:23:00的发言:

我觉得这两个村发展的根本原因是选择了适合社会的,能促进生产力发展的模式。南街村“外圆内方”,一方面是紧跟潮流,建立市场经济体系,另一方面又坚持社会主义公有制的基础地位,有特色的走富民兴村的道路。它是把怎么让农民、农村得到发展放在首位,结合自己的特点搞活农村经济的

华西村是在转型中发展起来的,它应该是很好的把握了发展的机遇,靠农村企业家或说是有企业家精神的人在坚持先让一部分人富起来带动后富的方式,统一合理规划而发展的。

我觉得这两个村的发展有推广的意义,在解决三农问题或是建设新农村中,有值得借鉴的地方,重要是不论怎么搞,都要符合客观规律,要从当地的实际出发,充分合理利用当地资源,有必要的话可以在最经济的情况下使资源合理流动,用最优的资源搭配,加上完善的制度,时时把农民的利益放在首位,促使农业的发展,最终城乡一体化。

但是,我觉得这两个村的经验没有必要看做是一副灵丹妙药,他不是我们国家发展的统一模式,我们国家的地区差异很大,不可能在每个地方都适合,毕竟这两个村的发展是两个特例,不能代表全部。

新农村建设中,农村的首要问题是切实给农民好处,也就是要切实把农民的利益放在第一位。新农村不是去把农村的房子等基础设备修一修,换成新的,也不是给农民带去一些他们不懂去又不使用的东西,而是要在城市化与市场之间另找一条路,让农民不仅仅增收(农民还是不满),更重要的是农民的福利得到满足。说简单点,就是要农民能体面的生活。

大学生下去面对的最大的困难是怎么与农民建立起互信,因为农村基层矛盾还是很尖锐,大学生下去与当地基层领导的关系很棘手,我们要保持住自己的原则还是与之同化,值得考虑。如果处理不好,加上我们大学生毕竟刚出校门,农民对我们是没有信心的。

这就要求大学生在下去前有很好的素质,能应对复杂的局面,下去能诚心抱着为农民做点事来的心态与之交往,相信我们是可以得到农民的新的。

以上纯是个人的愚见,见笑了

赞同楼上对最大困难的阐述!信任是以后展开工作和成功的起点。

“大学生下去面对的最大的困难是怎么与农民建立起互信,因为农村基层矛盾还是很尖锐,大学生下去与当地基层领导的关系很棘手,我们要保持住自己的原则还是与之同化,值得考虑。如果处理不好,加上我们大学生毕竟刚出校门,农民对我们是没有信心的。”

/www.lxyq.org

30
随机漫步 发表于 2006-3-24 09:52:00

How to make China even richer
Mar 23rd 2006
From The Economist print edition

Let the peasants own their land

ROPIIN 1940, nine years before his Communist Party seized power, Mao Zedong set out his plans for a “new China”. The republic would, he said, “take certain necessary steps” to confiscate land from rural landlords. Under the principle of “land to the tiller”, it would then “turn the land over to the private ownership of the peasants.” If only things had turned out this way.

The “necessary steps” involved widespread slaughter. Hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, of landowning rural residents and their families were executed or beaten to death by fellow villagers. The peasants got their small parcels of land, but not for long. By the late 1950s, private land ownership had been eliminated and peasants had become property-less members of “People's Communes”. It was an upheaval that, along with bad weather and a frenzied attempt to catch up with American levels of industrial production, contributed to millions more deaths in a nationwide famine.


As our survey describes, China has yet to undo the damage. A few years after Mao's death in 1976, the People's Communes were dismantled. Under Deng Xiaoping, agricultural production soared as for the first time in 30 years peasants were allocated (but not given full ownership of) plots of land to farm independently. This marked the start of the economic transformation that today holds the world spellbound. But it is the prosperity of urban China that mesmerises foreign businesses. Since its boom in the early 1980s, the countryside has lagged ever further behind.

This time, a genuine great leap forward
Deng kept in place two pillars of the Maoist rural order: collective land ownership and an apartheid system that barred rural residents from moving to the cities. The latter has begun to erode, due to the need for cheap labour to sustain a manufacturing boom. But the former remains firmly in place.

Now is the time to revive Mao's vision of a new landowning order. This would ease rural strife, fuel growth and help develop the genuine market economy the leadership claims to want. Giving peasants marketable ownership rights, and developing a legal system to protect them, would bring huge economic benefits. If peasants could mortgage their land, they could raise money to boost its productivity. Ownership would give them an incentive to do so. And if peasants could sell their land, they could acquire sufficient capital to start life anew in urban areas. This would boost urban consumption and encourage the migration of unproductive rural labour into the cities. For China to sustain its impressive growth rate and reduce inequalities, getting the many tens of millions of underemployed peasants off the land and into wealth-creating jobs is essential. The exodus would help those left behind to expand their land holdings and use them more efficiently.

No government, least of all the control freaks who run China, would embark on such a momentous exercise lightly. Communist Party ideologues are all too aware that a failure to handle rural issues properly can be destabilising. They worry that allowing peasants to sell their land could restore a rural landowning class, and that peasants would sell up in huge numbers and descend upon ill-prepared cities, throwing up shanty towns and pushing up crime.

Some officials also see collective ownership of rural land as one of the few remaining badges of China's professed “socialism”, and fear the explosion of divisive political debate if this bit of constitutional dogma is changed. In China's case, however, it is the absence of reform that is proving destabilising, as peasants protest violently against land seizures by local governments keen to exploit the land themselves. Though materially better off than they were in 1949, many peasants say that local bureaucrats have in effect become the landlords, sometimes using mafia-type gangs to push them off their fields.

A few opponents of land reform in the countryside say they are acting in the rural population's own interests. They point to the lack of social-security provisions for peasants. Though peasants have limited control over the land they farm, in most cases it can at least help to feed them.

The weakness of this argument is that forced appropriations by local governments have already deprived as many as 40m peasants of some or all of their land since the early 1990s, with little or no compensation. Besides, the best way to secure the welfare of the peasants is not to keep them trapped on underworked land but to spend more directly on services for the poor. With strong revenue growth, a low budget deficit and a booming economy, China can afford this. Compensating peasants for appropriated land on the basis of market values, not just minimal agricultural ones, would help too. And introducing a value-based property tax would persuade local governments to worry less about losing the one-off revenues they now enjoy from the sale of land rights.

It would be disingenuous to deny that land reform will loosen party control in the long run. A decade ago almost all urban housing was owned by the state. In one of the most dramatically successful economic reforms of the past quarter century in China, most is now privately owned. This has fostered the growth of a middle class that wants guarantees that its new assets are safe from the party's whims. Property owners are electing their own landlord committees—independent of the party—to protect their rights. A new breed of lawyers, not party stooges as most once were, is emerging to defend those whose properties are threatened by the state. Property owners want a clean environment around their homes. Green activism, which hardly existed in China a decade ago, is spurring the development of a civil society.

Even so, China's Communist Party has shown that it will take big risks if economic development demands them. Hence the widespread closure and privatisation of state-owned enterprises in the past decade, with the loss of millions of jobs. The leadership knows that China's history has been one of recurring bloody upheavals by landless peasants; it is caught between wanting to retain control and wanting to avoid another upheaval. This is the moment to complete the unfinished business of rural reform.



[此贴子已经被作者于2006-3-24 9:53:37编辑过]

万物参差多态,乃幸福之本源。

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